Polygamy in Texas
Interesting news came out today in the Texas polygamy case:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/22/AR2008052200548.html?hpid=topnews
This is, of course, referring to the case following the raid conducted by Texas officials on the Yearning For Zion ranch of the FLDS Church. Over 400 children taken during the raid are currently being held in foster homes across the state.
Key points via WaPost
“A Texas appeals court yesterday ruled that state child-protection officials lacked the evidence to seize children from the compound of a polygamist sect last month, rejecting arguments that the group’s belief system is itself a dangerous form of abuse.
…
If Texas officials cannot produce new evidence of abuse or win an appeal to the state Supreme Court, experts and lawyers involved in the case predicted, many of the children eventually could be returned to their parents.”
Rather than merely asking for your thoughts (which I would very much like to hear), I thought I might get more interest by putting some material out there…
This is not a defense of polygamy (if you feel like defending it, have at it).
1) Some argue that the only difference between a polygamist and a man who impregnates two women is more commitment to the relationship on the part of the polygamist. What is society’s interest in continuing to outlaw polygamy or prosecute polygamist communities, especially in light of our “evolving” positions on homosexual marriage?
2) Isn’t this just another example of a government’s tendency to (almost like an organic creature) destroy any other authority or institution that appears legitimate? A government cannot stand any institution that offers a legitimate alternative for citizens. As soon as one arises and is seen as more legitimate than governmental institutions, the government immediately reacts and crushes it. Is the move to crush the FLDS compound (as the Wacos of before) another instance of this phenomenon?
3) Should the state of Texas return custody of the children to the parents?
Any other thoughts?
- JOSH B
Tags: Abuse, Compound, FLDS, Polygamy, Texas, Waco, Yearning for Zion
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May 23, 2008 at 11:58 am
Well in my religion class a kid brought in an artical about this event, it said that the “wives” seized in the raid were barely over 18 and they had 4-6 children each.
So………… thast kinda changes the veiw alittle if it were just poligamy fine but forced marrage and pedophilia kinda creep me out
May 23, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I agree. The ages of the so-called wives make this issue more complicated and controversial than if it was regular polygamy. Barely 18 with 4-6 children already. Gauge about one child every nine months *shudder*, and you have them having their first child almost immediately after reaching puberty, around the ages of 13-14 years old.
Since the legal age of consent/marriage is 18, wouldn’t impregnating a 13- or 14-year-old be considered rape? In legal terms, if the person is underage, they lack the capacity to give consent. In Texas, the legal age of consent is 17 years old. Marriage age is 18 without consent from a parent or legal guardian. If under the age of 16, the law requires that the couple receives a court order before being allowed to marry.
And for clarification, it is only considered pedophilia if the child is prepubescent.
May 23, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Well I am pretty sure that you have never been pregnant so I need to clarify this, most people wouldnt survive giving birth and then getting pregnant that day so it is more like every year on average so they are more like just barely breeding. I have absolutly no problem with poligamy, If a man can be devoted and take care of multiple women the have fun not my buisness, same with a female with males. But this situation was not the best to bring to the pro side.
May 23, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Interestingly enough: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357263,00.html
Apparently not all were “underage”.
Also, I’m curious as to why we are taking such an interest in this compound in Texas when young girls are impregnated in our inner cities and trailer parks every day…….hmmmmmmmm wonder why that is……
I’m just saying, if you want to get preachy about underage mothers, apply the same judgment to other cultures and situations.
May 23, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Oh, and Alan, like I said before…..I have no interest in defending polygamy…….I just want people to look at it from different angles. What bothers me isn’t the polygamy aspect, but the apparent disregard for constitutional rights that was displayed by Texas authorities. To date they still have no specific cases of abuse to prosecute and no male suspects have been named or sought out. Yet, over 400 children have been stripped away from their parents. Whether or not you like what they preach, teach, or do in their bedrooms, they are American citizens who are not receiving due process or equality before the law.
May 23, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Well i dont apporove of them at all, but to have an establishment of any kind support it is wrong.
Once again I have nothing against poligamy just not when it involves children that is sick chino and you can agree, and yeah of course not all were underage but a good number were(I apologize for not specifying earlier)
I will also agree that busting into a chrch was not the best way of carrying out their point.
and to answer the original question should the children go back to the parents, YES so long as they have not created a hainous crime and are capable of taking care of the children.
May 23, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Chino I feel your pain more then you can imagine.
The army wll not let me do the job I want based on religion.
The army would not send my mother throuh OCS because she was female
Chino the government isnt constitutional at times but I we can do is remember to teach our children (if we should be so blessed) not to hate those who have hated us, and to not hate those that may be different.
May 23, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Facts:
1) Texas authorities have no specific instances of abuse to investigate or prosecute.
2) Texas authorities have failed to produce the girl who originally (allegedly) made the phone call first reporting abuse……the call that launched the raid. The number has apparently been traced to a woman in CO who may have a history of 911-line fraud.
3) Texas authorities had no legal authority (according to the court) to treat the compound as one household, and instead must treat each case as a separate matter. Thus rendering the confiscation of ALL children on the compound illegal.
Some of you may not know, but I have no love for polygamous groups. They cast a negative light on my Church and pervert our teachings. If I were to sit down with a member of this community, you can bet the conversation would be “heated” to say the least. However, with these facts staring me in the face, I find no legal standing for Texas authorities to continue with this charade…
May 23, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Link to phone number article….the beginning is the most relevant.
http://www.ktvu.com/family/15969696/detail.html
The pain I feel is one of a freedom-loving citizen watching our government slide the slippery slope to authoritarianism. Just to clarify, these folks are not of my faith, nor were they ever, and their beliefs are not at all consistent with my own.
May 26, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Yes the raid was unconstitutional, and until more, any, evidence is produced of abuse, yes the children should be returned to their parents with a full apology and maybe some sort of compensation for the emotional distress of the parents and the children.
However I must answer you, Chino, on your point about underage mothers in today’s society. There’s a difference between willing and forced.
FLDS doctrine states that “a man having multiple wives is ordained by God and is a requirement for a man to receive the highest form of salvation. It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement. Connected with this doctrine is the concept that wives are required to be subordinate to their husbands. The church currently practices the law of placing, whereby a young woman of marriageable age is assigned a husband by revelation from God to the leader of the church, who is regarded as a prophet. The prophet elects to take and give wives to and from men according to their worthiness.”
Notice the wives are required to subordinate to their husbands. Forced submission. I don’t know about anyone else, but that constitutes rape in my book. I view FLDS women the same way I view any other woman. If it’s consensual, fine, the consequences fall on the shoulders of the woman. But if it’s forced, then she is not at fault, and the man should be prosecuted for rape.
United States law states that if the girl is under the age of consent, it is rape. If she is under the age of marriage, and there is no court order granting it, the marriage is not consensual, and therefore invalid.
Ok, off my soapbox now. That’s my shpeel on underage mothers.
May 26, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Sami, note the Court’s finding that FLDS doctrine DOES NOT constitute any immediate danger or abuse.
Obviously, if a woman is PHYSICALLY forced into sexual relations with a man, it must be viewed as rape. The mere mention of feminine subordination in the group’s doctrine, however, is not equivalent to sexual abuse or rape.
If you wish to cite FLDS doctrine as evidence that women are “forced” into relationships, why not cite prevailing assumptions and beliefs in other American cultures where underage and/or extramarital sexual relations are romanticized, encouraged, and accepted?
It seems that many people (not necessarily you, Sami) use the group’s strange belief system as evidence that individuals in FLDS society are “forced” into participating in certain activities.
Factual and historical evidence tells a different story.
Women who escaped this lifestyle are evidence that individuals can leave any time they wish. The “Lost Boys” in southern Utah claim they were “forced” out of the FLDS community, but these young men were not driven out at the point of a gun. Instead, they may have been “forced” out by community pressures and the clever use of societal and theological sensitivities on the part of FLDS leaders. The mothers who have “escaped” the FLDS community feel the stinging rebuke of a spurned community rather than face the threat of armed retribution. At the gates and fences of FLDS compounds you’ll find no roving armed guards or towers with machine-guns. There will be consequences for rejecting the lifestyle, but they are in the form of being “disowned”, “disavowed”, and the loss of community privilege and access. Not quite appealing, but also not illegal.
People of the FLDS community should be treated as any other American citizens: individuals protected by the Constitution. Any known physical abuse should be prosecuted, and the criminals brought to justice. I just wish that people would stop trying to use their strange beliefs as “evidence” of abuse.
On a personal note, the FLDS story has left me with a conundrum. As a Latter-day Saint, I hate what such polygamous communities have done and are doing to the Church’s reputation. I have grown quite weary of being expected to answer questions regarding polygamy and abuse every time my faith is brought up. Many Latter-day Saints would like to see polygamy stamped out for selfish reasons (Utah is known to be fairly harsh on polygamous communities). I obviously have severe disagreements on doctrine and lifestyle with members of the FLDS community. However, as an advocate for limited government and restoration of personal liberty, I am appalled at what Texas authorities have done in this case.
May 28, 2008 at 4:15 pm
A few things.
First, Bocchino, is the misconception that rape must be by force. coercion still constitutes rape.
The “Lost Boys” were forced out, though not at gun point. If you were rejected by your community after being a fine and upstanding young lad all your life for trivial reasons, you’d feel slighted and confused too.
Finally, the simple fact that the state of Texas allows marriage, and thereby sex at ages under 16 is a serious problem. I don’t trust a judge to make that determination any more than I do a church elder. Furthermore, I think it is entirely hypocritical of a government such as that in Texas to prosecute a religious order on the basis of claiming rights (as ‘delivered than by god’
that the state itself claims; in point, the state can allow marriages of children, but not the church. I think this is in violation of constitutional rights in the first place.
Not to mention all the great points you made about the lacking evidence of abuse, Bocchino.
Thanks,
Paul
May 28, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Coercion may, but not a vague doctrine of feminine subordination, Paul.
I agree that the “lost boys” have reason to feel confused. My point was only that the FLDS community seems to be something other than the dark, murderous group of thugs that some make it out to be. Individuals are kept in the community by social pressures rather than force. That’s all…
June 3, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Just an update to this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7431848.stm
June 19, 2008 at 10:07 am
Somehow i missed the point. Probably lost in translation
Anyway … nice blog to visit.
cheers, Coagulation!
July 27, 2008 at 8:59 pm
I read in so many of these comments where You refer to church / Religeon etc. I personally do not consider a group or congregation of people who worship a so called Prophit of God, “Self Appointed and Ordained: Who reportedly has as many as 30 wifes, Most of Whom were Children when Impregnated by Their Lord and Master. A Church? His Church. A Religeon? His Religeon.Still The abuse will go on by His followers The Super Pedophiles of the FLDS.