I appreciate and accept your apology. And of course, no hard feelings. I’m glad your method worked for you as well, thank you.

-Paul

Furthermore, I appologize for my personal attacks against you and I hope there are no hard feelings.

-Chief

Okay, I never thought you’d serve this up on a silver platter, perhaps I over-estimated you (sorry, that’ll be the last dig, but after the personal attacks you levied against me, I find it warranted).

“Because the first step in AA (sorry but it just fits) is to admit you have a problem and that you are powerless to control it on your own.” Wow man, I’m not quite sure where to begin with this…
Alright, this is EXACTLY why I despise the AA methodology. Before I get into all that though, it is of note that when you call me a liar for holding my view you are revealing a great deal about your own self-imposed cognitive limitations (not intended as a dig, just an important observation). We BOTH have anecdotal experience, but I also have SCIENCE and RESEARCH. You should give ‘em a try sometime, they’re not so bad (alright, that was a little untoward, but more in tone than in content).
So, when you say that you “know” I’m a liar for saying what I do (I do maintain that I beat my addictions on my own, by the way) I take this to indicate that you BELIEVE this because of what you “learned” in AA.

Again, I’m not saying AA doesn’t work, I am saying that people are not powerless to change themselves or their environments until they abdicate their power by asserting that they are powerless. The AA tagline you stated above (quoted herein) is directly from the Christian idea that people need God’s help to do ANYTHING. If this is where your conviction comes from, you may either think it over and agree with me or agree to disagree. I was a Christian, I’m now an atheist. I recognize people’s inherent ability to change themselves if they so choose. It is EXTREMELY difficult in the case of addiction in particular, but it is all the same possible. Take a psych class or two if you think you might be ready to understand this more. The current state of the science of addiction sheds a great deal of light on how it is overcome, with no inherent need to “accept that you are powerless to control it.” A number of other interventions actually have MUCH better success and recidivism rates than does AA – again, without the addict believing they are powerless to change on their own. Understanding these mechanisms can allow a person to change with little to no support from other people (as I myself did).

So, while I appreciate the condescending tone and blatant disrespect of your previous post, I must respectfully – and with the authority of one who possesses a genuine and commanding knowledge of the subject – disagree.

Thanks,
Paul

Furthermore, I WAS AN ADDICT, and I am not anymore. This transition required a great deal of hard work for a LONG time, but required no inspiration from God, nor “acknowledging” that I ‘will always be an addict.’ So, I’m sorry Zach, but your experience is not conclusive. On the bright side, mine isn’t either. This is why we use SCIENCE/RESEARCH to answer important questions like those addressed above.

So, I’m thrilled that AA worked for you my friend, but it’s not the ONLY way to overcome addiction. And addiction does NOT have to be viewed as a life-long issue. I study these things for a living, people can have tremendous and lasting success without the AA approach. While I appreciate your perspective and your experience, neither is sufficient to inform us about the experience (or more to the point, range of experience which is possible) of the multitudes of people that share our history with this problem.

Thanks,
Paul

P.S. I have done my research, and the results are in- as stated above, thank you.

Adiction: the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma.

What you have said here Paul Proves to me that you know not what you speak of. Addiction is very serious. Yes there is rehab, but if you have watched the news at all, almost everyone who has gone through rehab has had a relapse and started doing drugs/drinking alchohol again.

If you were an addict then you would know that addiction does NOT end. I myself am addict, and I live in daily struggle to not get my fix. (My addiction is minor and does not cause any physical harm so all of those on here who know me, there is no need for alarm.) I am in recovery and forever will be.

So you are the one who needs to do your research Paul, not me.

-Chief

A couple problems here…

Shown- the research you speak of wasn’t out when the law was passed and the actual time frame is 21-22. It wasn’t a research based decision, it was arbitrary at the time, they just happened to be right.

However, with this knowledge, what about increasing the driving/smoking/signatory/military ages to 21?

Zach- my friend, I am sorry, but the AA tagline of “once an addict – always an addict” simply does not hold water. In fact I’d be reticent to try carrying anything smaller than a basketball with that argument, the holes are THAT big. Numerous empirical studies as well as ethological studies (out of Europe) have demonstrated that people don’t have to abstain for life to end addiction.

AA is great if that’s the path a person chooses to recovery, but it is by no means the only one available.

Addiction can end. And further, it’s desirable in an open forum like this to define addiction before you begin the discourse, because there are many competing conceptualizations/interpretations/definitions, and not all of these are created equal in the eyes of empirical science.

Thanks,
Paul

I have personal experience in this area and I know what it can do. These so called “binge drinkers” that have been mentioned earlier are much worse than “more than 5 drinks in a week.” I think you should be saying more than 5 drinks a DAY. This is a serious issue and should not be taken lightly.

With the argument of alcohol is a traditional drink, that was only in great moderation at social events. Todays drinkers are drinking just to get drunk, and they want nothing more than to get drunker than the guy sitting next to them. it’s all pointless and purely mindless. Nothing less.

Alcohol is a drug, it is in the same league as marajuana, meth, and cocaine. It is a VERY addicting substance. The people that become “binge” drinkers are those who are addicted. And the people that become addicted are the people that start young. That would be the reason the drinking age is set at 21.

I have many people that I know (underage) that are drinking just so they can sleep at night, or so they can forget something that has happened to them. If alcohol was the solution to everything I would have died from alcohol poisoning a very long time ago. But I am still here today, and completely sober. I have lived my entire life with out a single drink of alcohol, and I am now one of the happiest people on the planet.

On addiction, you will never stop being an addict. You may stop using what you use or watching what you watch, but you will just switch to something else. AA is for alcoholics that are in RECOVERY, they will never fully be, “unaddicted.” they could be carrying around a 3 year chip in their back pocket, and completely undo all that work with one sip of alcohol. They have to start from square one.

If one thing is bad about alcohol, above all else, it is the creation of addiction. That’s all we’re doing by asking to lower the drinking age. You are all just sanctioning the creation of more addicts.

There is a part of the brain near the front that doesn’t fully develop until one reaches the age of 21. This section of the brain brings with it the ability to predict the long-term consequences of our actions. Now, alcohol impedes the development of this important part of the brain. It’s research that says it is fully developed at age 21, that is why the drinking age is 21.

So it’s really not the fact that you are an adult at 18. It’s the fact that your brain is fully developed at age 21.

-Shown